Plato, Laws

Clinias
Very little.

Athenian
And such a man is, we say, very bad?

Clinias
Very, indeed.

Athenian
It appears, then, that not the grey-beard only may be in his “second childhood,” but the drunkard as well.

Clinias
An admirable observation, Stranger.

Athenian
Is there any argument which will undertake to persuade us that this is a practice we ought to indulge in, instead of shunning it with all our might so far as we possibly can?

Clinias
It appears that there is: at any rate you assert this, and you were ready just now to argue it. [646b]

Athenian
You are right in your reminder, and I am still ready to do so, now that you and Megillus have both expressed your willingness to listen to me.

Clinias
Of course we shall listen, if only on account of the surprising paradox that, of his own free will, a man ought to plunge into the depths of depravity.

Athenian
Depravity of soul, you mean, do you not?

Clinias
Yes.

Athenian
And how about plunging into a bad state of body, such as leanness or ugliness or impotence? Should we be surprised if a man of his own free will ever [646c] got into such a state?

Clinias
Of course we should.

Athenian
Well then, do we suppose that persons who go of themselves to dispensaries to drink medicines are not aware that soon afterwards, and for many days to come, they will find themselves in a bodily condition such as would make life intolerable¹ if it were to last for ever? And we know, do we not, that men who go to the gymnasia for hard training commence by becoming weaker?

Clinias
All this we know.

Athenian
We know also that they go there voluntarily for the sake of the subsequent benefit ? [646d]

Clinias
Quite true.

Athenian
Should one not take the same view of the other institutions also?

Clinias
Certainly.

Athenian
Then one must also take the same view of the practice of wine-drinking, if one can rightly class it amongst the others.

Clinias
Of course one must.

Athenian
If then this practice should be shown to be quite as beneficial for us as bodily training, certainly at the outset it is superior to it, in so far as it is not, like bodily training, accompanied by pain. [646e]

Clinias
That is true; but I should be surprised if we succeeded in discovering in it any benefit.

Athenian
That is precisely the point which we must at once try to make plain. Tell me now: can we discern two kinds of fear, of which the one is nearly the opposite of the other?

Clinias
What kinds do you mean?

Athenian
These: when we expect evils to occur, we fear them.

Clinias
Yes.

Athenian
And often we fear reputation, when we think we shall gain a bad repute for doing or saying something base;